The following is written by Jon, a gay man married to his partner, who also has adopted kids. Jon frequently comments on this blog, and I truly appreciate his thoughtful insight to whatever discussion is ongoing. In some recent ongoing discussions on the blog the question of, would a gay family attend a conservative church, was brought up. I actually thought that question deserved its own post. And there would be no one better to answer such a question than Jon. So here you go…
“I grew up in and was confirmed in the United Methodist Church. I was active in our youth group and taught Sunday school for a couple years. I went to college at Luther College in Decorah, IA – an ELCA-affiliated college. I learned much about the Bible during those years, but I also learned how to think more critically about the things that I learned and read.
It was during those college years that I came out as a gay man. I had already privately acknowledged to myself during my early teen years that I was sexually and emotionally attracted to other boys, but there were no real options or resources for coming out during those pre-Internet years in rural Minnesota. During college, I finally met other gay people and allies and gradually became comfortable with myself. I began looking towards the future and questioning assumptions about my potential life as a gay man. I began asking why I couldn’t find the man of my dreams? Why couldn’t we have kids? Why should I limit my interests, my activities, my privacy, or my dignity to fit within others’ expectations for a gay man.
I dated a bit in college, but mostly focused on my academic goals. Shortly after college, I met and fell in love with the man who would eventually become my husband, Mark. We shared many life goals: careers, relationship, home, kids. We weren’t sure how to get there, but it was enough to stay focused.
I had fallen away from the church during college and Mark had never found the right church home here in the Midwest. In my mid-20s, I felt a strong need to reconnect with God, but knew that I would not be welcomed in most churches. Eventually, I met a UCC minister named Pastor Rick who invited us to share worship with his small Christian church. It was the first UCC church in Iowa to have declared itself Open & Affirming (i.e., GLBT-affirming). Mark and I were wed there in 1997 in a religious ceremony – not legality to it due to our state’s Defense of Marriage Act (which in 2009 was repealed). But it was important for us to become a family with God’s blessing.
Gradually, I decided to join this church. I knew we were planning on becoming adoptive parents within a few years and wanted a church community that our kids could grow up in and learn about God and Jesus. But I also wanted a church that would treat our family with the same level of dignity as any other family. I wanted to know that my kids would be safe in Sunday school lessons and would not be secretly taught that their parents are deviant.
Truthfully, my theology is more traditional than my church’s theology. I honestly believe that homosexuality is not universally condemned within the Bible. I don’t understand why gay people cannot be encouraged to follow a model of chastity and marital behavior, but within a working context for their reality. Both Mark and I would be better suited in a more traditional church setting. I have tried to worship at a couple other conservative churches – one a non-denominational church and the other a start-up Presbyterian church. Both of them are relaxed, while traditional with their worship style. Both are active with community service projects. Both actively reach out to the unchurched and otherwise disconnected worshippers in our community. Both encourage members to discuss, learn, and grow with their faith. But neither was ready for a two-dad household.
So we stay where we’re at. Which isn’t terrible but, to be honest, we really have few other places to meet all of our religious needs.
There’s really no way that we could worship at a conservative Christian church that did not respect the dignity or the reality of our family. Too often, I feel like Christians are interested in reaching out to gay people without a real clue about how or why. I have listened to several interviews on this subject and heard way too many questioners talk about how great it is to befriend their gay relative/neighbor/co-worker, but cannot figure out when it’s the right time to tell them to “turn or burn”. I find myself wondering what those people would expect if they befriended me, introduced me to their church, and then told me that I would only be right with God if I dumped Mark.
The truth is that Mark and I have no desire to divorce ourselves from each other. To do so would be disruptive to our boys, who’ve already dealt with separation issues related to their time in foster care. We’re both content with our lives. We both have good jobs, fun kids, distracting pets, and a nice home. We’re well-matched husbands for each other. All things considered, we’ve been blessed by God and I thank Him every day for what we have together.
I could understand if some church leader was to step in and assist us during a time of dysfunction, but that’s not us. Neither of us drinks or uses drugs. We don’t gamble. We don’t sleep around. We don’t go to clubs. Heck, the only time we’ve been to Boystown was during a drive-through on our way to the Chicago ComiCon.
My point is, most churches only seem willing to accept our family if we dissolve our household. One of the most stabilizing elements in my life – my husband and our family – are treated like the most harmful thing that I could maintain in my life. I recognize and reject this crazy paradox of thinking and so do other gay families like us. And that’s why most of us won’t worship in Christian churches.”
Any questions for Jon?
Much love.
Just a dude trying to learn how to live and love. 
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Bottom line, I’m not going to justify the legitimacy of my faith or my family. Enough.
Bayah – I do not mean to write to defend Jon as he obviously does not need my help and I have seen that he can intelligently communicate his thoughts, but I just briefly wanted to address some of the language that you used in your last post.
“I do not honor the marriage that you have” and “But what you do is sexually immoral.”
Now I think that blogs have the potential to foster productive communication, serve as a starting point for some with regards to reconciliation, and expose us to viewpoints that we may not encounter in our daily lives among other things. But your very strong statements also bring to mind some of the ways that blogs often seem to perpetuate unproductive communication. Communication like that seems more likely to happen on a blog than face to face as it is a more impersonal medium that enables individuals to express thoughts in a detached manner. On a blog we do not have to physically see or hear the pain or reactions that they can ellicit and individuals do not have to deal with the uncomfortable tension that results from the comment.
My question is, would you say something that strong and black and white in person if you were hanging out with Jon as I’m guessing that the two of you do not know each? Maybe you would, I don’t know. And I might be falling into the same trap that I am talking about as I can not say for sure that I would say what I am currently saying without having a feel for what the environment would be like, although I hope that I would. I find myself falling into this temptation sometimes, so I wanted to bring it up on the chance that it is applicable here.
Also, to clarify, you have misread my question, “Isn’t your form of Christian love just indulgence?” To explain, you want me to indulge you by condoning your behaviours. If I do that, I’m gay-friendly. However, if I don’t condone your behaviours, I am accused of uncompromising animosity (as you wrote), homophobia, hate, or discrimination (as gays typically state). What I’m saying is, I can point out where you stray from Christ’s teachings without being accused of not loving you.
Kevin, neither your post, nor Jon’s appeared until I posted my last reply. I haven’t said anything unkind or different than I would in real life. I have told my best friend (who is gay) that his behaviour is wrong. And one and a half years ago, he finally agreed with me, and told me, of his own volition, that he was on the non-sinning path again. I have told close family members who were having sex outside of marriage that they should wait until they got married. Naturally, they didn’t appreciate that, but roads have been smoothed in our relationship once more. (They have since married.)
It’s all well and good for Jon and gays to say what they believe, but if I do that I’m accused of strong language. Homosexuals are taking away our freedom of speech bit by bit. This is yet another example. You basically are not permitted to disagree with them in public.
Who has taken away your freedom of speech, Bayah? You’ve disagreed. It’s still there.
I have freedom of speech in that I’m anonymous. I would never dare to print my full name as you do, because it sets me up to A) lose my job and have no chance at many other jobs B) put me before a human rights commission at great expense to defend myself even if I win (we’re talking over $50 000 for defense against frivolous homosexual discrimination charges that are dropped) and thousands if I lose the case in penalties and court costs. If you really believe that our freedom of speech is unaffected by the homosexual movement, you seriously need to look at LifeSiteNews and type in homosexuality human rights commission in the search engine.
Fair enough. But no one is trying to take away your freedom to say what you would like. My main point was merely that trying to call out or correct someone that you do not know through a detached and rather impersonal electronic form of communication is probably not the best place to start when you do not have a history together and this is the first time that you have started communicating with one another. It is different when your lives become intertwined and the other person knows that you care deeply about them, hence the example with your friend and family that you cited. To be a little cliche, the saying “people do not care about what you think until they know how much you care” applies here as your family knows that you care about them so they will listen when you try to speak into their lives. The opposite is true when telling someone that you do not know that homosexuality is a sin. For the most part it can be assumed that you will be met with hostility or a negative response even if you are acting out of love if you tell this to someone who is gay that you do not personally know. Not only do most gay individuals hear you calling their relationship and sexual expression a sin, but many will also hear you calling their entire being into question because it is not only seen as a sexual expression but an inherent part of who they are as a person. I am not trying to get into the whole nature/nurture debate, but am just saying that this is the outlook of many in the gay community regardless of whether it is right or wrong. That is why I referred to it as “strong language” as it has the potential to be damaging to the other person, especially when you do not have a history with them that is rooted in unconditional love.
Bayah – My apologies for assuming that you had said some things that you might not have said in person. As you stated that you have “not said anything different than you would in real life” I will take you at your word that you would say the same thing to Jon if you just met him in person today. It’s a good lesson for me to not assume or come to a conclusion without sufficient facts to base it upon.
Bayah: I am sorry you feel so threatened in the world by people you regard as sinners. I would imagine it would feel terrible to feel so fearful all the time. I am a bisexual woman and I wonder if you see me as a woman who sins doubly so as my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. I also wonder if you feel as threatened by your awareness of your own sins, or of different kinds of sins you see around you, and feel the need or motivation to point them out in public or private to yourself or other. For example, if you see a relative putting down another family member viciously, do you say, “It is wrong to emotionally abuse or ridicule one another?” Do you monitor sins like this in yourself? Do you speak up when you see pending legislation that will leave children hungry or poor people without clothes, which I believe Jesus enjoined us to see as sinful? I’m just wondering what your motivation is behind pointing out specificially sexual sins to those around you, and if it is a religious or biblical reason, why stop with sexual sins, when sins against the poor, against hypocrisy by those in power, and the like, are so common as well. Jesus enjoined also to be humble, to be aware of not of our own righteousness (the parable of the righteous man and the sinful tax collector praying) and not to judge. How do these sentiments fit in with your policy of pointing out others’ sins aloud? Finally, the greatest commandment calls us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and so to me this means treating our neighbors, far and near, as we ourselves would like to be treated. Are you grateful to those in your family or strangers who might point out your sins of any kind aloud? Do you point out the wonderful and beautiful things that your family and friends do to and for you as well as their sins? Have you thanked your friends for being friends with you, as well as their sins?
Iphimedia – Thank you for being so gracious in asking your questions. I think such discussions with Bayah and Jon are extremly important because they are a microcosum of broader societal disconnects. If we can do it here, learning how to engage in productive means, we can do it in person as well.
Hi Iphimedia,
That’s a lot of questions. I don’t know if I should answer them one by one or just give you the gist of things. I don’t feel threatened by the fact that people sin because I’m a sinner like the rest of them. Jesus said the road is narrow and there will be few who enter His Kingdom. It’s true I fear for my soul, perhaps a bit more than most, but I’d fear a lot more if I chose the path of people who think God is just their buddy. Yes, He shows mercy, but He also embodies justice.
We are supposed to pull people aside who sin and try to correct them. If that doesn’t work, we can ask a friend to help, and if after a third attempt with a priest, it’s alright to leave them to it and shake the dust off of our feet. (Can you help me find this passage by St. Paul? It’s late, and you might be able to help me.)
When Jesus told us not to judge, he did not mean we can’t judge behaviours. How could we function without making judgements each day on what constitutes good or bad behaviour, much less teach our children? There would be little point in Jesus instructing us on how to live if we weren’t allowed to put His teachings in practice. And how can we do that without judging good from bad, privately and as part of a community? Matthew Chapter 7 can shed some light here. The point is not a prohibition against recognizing the sins of others but rather against passing judgement in a spirit of arrogance, forgetful of one’s own faults.
Nowadays, it’s considered bad behaviour to correct anybody.
I always scan my days to see where I’ve failed. I ask God for His forgiveness, and then try to improve. In addition, I participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Now, to non-Catholics, I appear as a guilt-ridden neurotic. (Were those your thoughts? lol) But in the end, I don’t get judged by you. I get judged by God. Guilt has a definite purpose. You aren’t supposed to dwell on your guilt but rather use it to tell you to get a sin absolved. Once it’s absolved, you can perform penance but you should not dwell on that guilt ever again, nor would you be inclined to. If you go to Reconciliation often enough, you’d probably be LESS guilt-ridden than your non-Catholic friends. I have found that people who don’t believe in Catholic confession end up confessing to their buddies, online, on youtube, on television, and many other places with no confidentiality like you get with a priest.
Whenever you see a trial in which the defendant doesn’t feel guilty or won’t admit his guilt, the media will point out that that’s a problem. They will label him or her a sociopath. So guilt is recognized to be a necessary thing when we’ve sinned. Unless it comes to sexual sins. Then guilt is supposed to be tossed out the window.
Every sin is worthy of close examination, including the ones you mention. I worry about them all. I’m actually quite ineffectual but I keep trying to help those around me in a hundred ways before I get called home.
Dear Jon and Bayah, its late, but I read all of your discussions and felt the need to briefly respond.
I appreciate greatly both of what you have to say, because what you have discussed with each other are the two exact voices that I constantly battle with in my head every second of my life.
Growing up in a strong loving Christian home with ssa all my life, I am still seeking answers and finding peace with my sexuality. Honestly, I appreciate Bayah’s words and I do believe he is spoken out of love and grace for people like me. I am 23 years old and currently dating a man that is pretty much an atheist. However, he is a man of love and holds high moral values and ethics. He respects my Christian beliefs and agrees to not have sex with me, as for right now, as I continue to seek answers and wisdoms from God and from loving people like you all.
My college professor is open with his ssa feelings, but decided to get married with a woman and have 3 young daughters, because he believed it was the right thing to do as a follower of Christ. I looked up to him and asked him for guidance and prayer for my life during my college years. Because of his testimony, I also started to have desires to seek relationships with women. Soon after I graduated, I found out that he has left the school and his family to be with his boyfriend.
This story saddens me greatly and I have great fear whether this is something that would ever happen to me. BUT, even if I continue to stay with my boyfriend and eventually get married with him, I still have doubts in my mind because I know what the Bible clearly says. I also have great fear that when the judgement day comes, I will find out that I have been led astray and have been so selfish because I’ve followed my own heart, not God’s.
Let me ask my very own fellow gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, “If you really claim yourself to be a Christian, what’s the purpose of your life?” For me as a homosexual, I am continually growing to have the pure desire to glorify God everyday of my life. My ultimate goal in life is to please God and raise Him high, being fully satisfied while doing it.
I have no idea where God will lead me in the future, being married to a woman? to a man? or even stay celibate and single until I meet my Heavenly Father face to face. Honestly, celibacy will be miserable, not going to lie, especially for someone like me. But it just might be God’s calling in my life, and I believe He is gracious and loving and will guide me to the way that He wants me to go, if I honestly turn to Him.
The purpose for my comment is to encourage everyone of you who is reading this post and I do believe that we all have different lives that God has called us to live. Praying for all of you.
Thanks for sharing your story, Paul. Not sure if you’re asking for my two cents, but I’ll offer it anyway and you can do what you want with my advise.
I question whether or not you should date anyone, male or female, until you get a clearer idea of what you’re moving towards. Dating’s an opportunity to find compatibility for the future. Do we share common interests? Is s/he a good person? Is s/he moral? Do we have similar goals? Can I see myself growing old with this person?
I don’t know if it’s fair to your boyfriend or for a future girlfriend to get involved with someone who’s uneasy with the very nature of your relationship. I mean, what happens to your boyfriend if you ultimately decide that dating guys is wrong? What happens if you marry a woman like your old professor did and that ultimately doesn’t turn out because you’re gay?
I guess, I’m suggesting that it might be a good thing to take a break on dating anyone until you’re less conflicted about your sexual orientation and your religious identity.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing!
Paul – Jon just gave you the most level-headed advice you could ever get. You’re on a journey with you life and faith and sexuality; give it its due process. You need a space to seek God in relation to yourself and others, and however long that space deems, that’s perfectly ok. Much love…we’re here for you!
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