Comments on: Part 1: New Way of Activism

By: Andrew Marin

Andrew Marin — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 08:28:00 +0000

I think if we take a little piece of what many of you said, then yes, marches/protests are totally worthwhile and do influence change. Here is my combo of what an effective culturally current march/protest/etc looks like, thanks to you:

Significantly large marches and protests are effective when they can leverage their numbers in combination with viral means before and after—all of which also depends on good media relations (thanks Robert) to get the message to masses. However, in order for this to happen the people must become the change they want to see (thanks again Robert), totally and utterly committed no matter what—as MLK Jr. said: “You can take away our jobs, you can criticize us, you can stab our families and you can bomb our houses and we’ll still keep going” (thanks Kevin). And doing all of this in person, directly in the face of violent oppression, it can, and will work (thanks Steven) because the crowd motivates the crowd to go back and keep pressing along (thanks Joe_S).

Now that is something I can stand for!

The problem is that combo of things hardly/rarely ever happen. In fact as I argued in my last post, only 3 times in 600 years. But as we can see, when it does happen, the world changes. I will be posting further questions about this in my next blog post.

By: Seth

Seth — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:32:31 +0000

I think quite a bit changed as a result of the protests during the Democratic Convention in Chicago in 1968, mostly because of the brutal and violent response ordered by then Mayor Richard J. Daley, much of which was captured by the media and broadcast nationwide. More recently, I think the ongoing, persistent protest by ACT-UP, the Gay Men’s Health Crisis, and other organizations in the 1980s resulted in changes to the medication approval process that allowed early advances treatment for all kinds of illness to be tested and moved to market much more quickly. In his book “The World Turned,” Chicago historian John D’Emilio believes that the AIDS crisis changed the entire perspective toward gays in the U.S. I guess it depends on what we mean by “effective” protest.

By: Kevin

Kevin — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:02:51 +0000

very true

By: Kevin

Kevin — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:21:59 +0000

OK, so I’m not very good at using code to insert a link so here is the website URL by itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3C8AAOMWsg&feature=related

Granted these actions do not translate easily into the struggle for GLBT rights and I am probably being overly theoretical, but I think that what is behind the actions still has weight today

By: Kevin

Kevin — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:19:17 +0000

The other main thing that comes to mind is the process by which we go about creating the change. Gandhi emphasized that we must first go through a personal transformation/self-purification, followed by dialogue and negotiation, leading up to political action, and then “constructive programme” (building a new society in the shell of the old). The problem so often is that we jump to the political action first without going through the difficult work of personal spiritual transformation since revolution can only start with the self. The ashrams that he started were for this purpose and that is where the real work was carried out in their struggle against the British empire.
Thinking of Ghandi, here is an example of protest in one of its truest forms that emphasizes the humanity of the protesters while highlighting the injustice of the other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3C8AAOMWsg&feature=related" title="here"

By: Kevin

Kevin — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:06:25 +0000

I think that one of the reasons that marches and protests have become largely ineffective is due to the fact that the participants are only seeking to create political change alone. Unjust laws and acts or systems of oppression are often manifestations of a condition of the heart (prejudice/hatred) along with ignorance or lack of education. A majority of the forms of protest that we see today are only seeking justice for the oppressed and a political solution while neglecting the vital work of appealing to the hearts and consciousness of the oppressors. True justice that brings about lasting change is when the marginalized are freed from their role as the oppressed along with those that are perpetuating the injustices being freed from their role as the oppressors.
This can be seen when MLK Jr. was insisting that his brothers and sisters fighting for civil rights with him continue to love those that were oppressing them no what what injustices were committed. He was not only fighting for civil rights but for a change of heart to dismantle the racism that brought about the unjust laws in the first place. This spirit did not live on completely, so we started to accomplish things like integration in schools but the racism still persisted and has today taken more structural and institutional forms since the focus shifted from a change of heart and politics to political change alone.
So Andrew, I agree with you in that marching and forms of protest are worthless to an extent by themselves if they are devoid of a relational connection (since I’m guessing that your focus will be on a more grassroots level with an empasis on interpersonal relationships)

By: Seth

Seth — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:41:44 +0000

And don't forget Jesus' Palm Sunday march into Jerusalem. The crowds thought he would rescue them from oppressive Roman occupation. Less than one week later the same crowds insisted that Pilate hang him on the cross.

Majorly effective protest.

By: Mrs T

Mrs T — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:20:12 +0000

I don’t think there is an absolute answer to this. I’m sure there are bureaucrats there keeping count. They know how many people each peson there represents. [They say that a letter represents 50? people, so apparently one protester represents X people.]
Different methods work differently in different eras. Even in my youth, religious tracts had some use. Today, in our wasteful society, when people don’t bat an eye throwing away a whole book or usable clothing, do I expect someone to read a small pamphlet? No. Now on occasion, someone may discuss an issue & I may know of a small publication that may help him. Then, it may be useful, but not in a broad sense.
I think these protests have some value. The congress now knows that over a million ‘teabaggers’ came(despite the media hushing it up)and are not fooled by the politicians’ lies. There was a Muslim march with 5,000 folks 2 weeks before the GLBT march, which had many more. I hope Big O takes note that he needs to listen to the GLBT community more than the Muslim commmunity, which is no friend of theirs! (Wake up!)
OK, I’m digressing a little. But the point is that the march did have impact. Some folks in DC recorded what was going on & surely the info is being passed on to those who need to know!
Will there be other methods we need to try? Of course, but this wasn’t a total waste.
The method that has worked for Christians over the years, tho not always having instant results, is prayer & fasting!! Never failed yet!!!!!!!!!!!

By: Debbie Thurman

Debbie Thurman — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:19:23 +0000

Tiananmen Square (1989) comes to mind as a courageous stand that I think will be shown to have made a difference one day. Of course, the underground home churches in China, which thrive and grow off of oppression, are the very best demonstration.

Marches or protests today are largely symbolic. Certainly, one would have to go back to the Vietnam, New Left, SDS, Love-in era to see the most recent significant impact of demonstrations in this country. Could we even have a Woodstock today? Don’t think so.

Whereas war protests in the U.S. were part of the psychological warfare waged by the North Vietnamese and their Communist supporters, today we have extremist cell groups linked with terror organizations living right among us, no doubt plotting the next attack on American soil. I guess Bill Ayers and the SDS were the closest equivalent back in the day. Or Jane Fonda.

Jerry Rubin said in his 1970 manifesto, “Do It,” that “television creates myths bigger than reality.” TV was the thing then. This era is no longer providing the “commercial for the revolution” that Rubin coveted. Too much white noise. British Christian TV pioneer Malcolm Muggeridge said, “All the stage is a world.” Problem is today the Internet is the stage.

But I doubt we will eradicate symbolic protests.

Of course, some will say that the 1969 Stonewall riots were an effective protest since they launched the first gay pride parades as commemorative marches and the modern gay-rights movement.

By: Joe_S

Joe_S — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:51:41 +0000

I think the crowd motivates the crowd. They go back home and do all those other things that make movements work.

By: Andrew Marin

Andrew Marin — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:44:25 +0000

Paul – The viral, internet stuff is a totally different ballgame. I don’t see ‘viral’ in the same category at all as large public marches. Points well taken from you and Leanne though.

By: Paul Turner

Paul Turner — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:40:32 +0000

I think that you are right that protests don’t change legislation but I don’t know if that is entirely why any does protests. They hope for it. I also think they make an impact but in a different way. I think protests are necessary for 3 reasons and one observation

1. Leverage- The more we have the more you better listen. We are not just protestors, we are votes.

2. Information- With the internet a protest goes viral in seconds. This only means you get a message out, not that anything changes. Like the Video: The Bible Tells Me So. It is effective in communicating a message but will it change the mind of the unconverted? When there is a glut of information it can come across as truth. If you type in gay on You Tube, you get a number of things 1) Gay jokes or satire or 2) Gay Education. I think the plan is: the more normal it is culturally, the more accepted it should be. 35 and up ,41%, and 50 and up 43% say gay marriage is wrong. Of 18-35 yr olds 58% think it’s ok (cnn pol). Well, who watches more You Tube.

3. Message to the Base- Now the base maybe money men, PACS, whoever pulls the strings. It speaks to those in the trenches. We’re at least doing something.

My last reason is a human observation. Some people protest because they must. It is the highest homage to your cause next to Imprisonment (which really used to work for Anti-Abortion folks in the 80′s) or Martydom (that will change some minds). People feel the need to release anger, sadness, or anxiety, whatever.

So, I have not idea why the long answer, but I am in school, so I am used to answering in longer sentences to take up page space LOL.