I don’t have time to read all the comments, so I hope that what I’m going to write has not already been said!

I think my biggest observation concerning the hatred of the gay community for ex-gays is that they have seen or experienced some of the negative consequences that accompany many attempts at orientation change. I spent six years trying to change, and it nearly destroyed my faith and my life. I was doing everything right, but I still solely fancied other blokes. The way I understood it was that I was doing something wrong. If it was God’s will for me to be straight, the only reason I was not becoming straight was because I was somehow a failure. I had given everything I had to give until all that was left was despair. I even hated reading the Bible, because all I saw was condemnation for my failure, and God’s disgust at my feelings for other men.

I sometimes find it helpful to share segments from an email correspondence that took place between myself and a close friend during the time where I was on the verge of wholly rejecting my faith. They’re pretty raw thoughts and emotions, and I hope it somewhat illustrates what attempts at orientation change were doing to my faith.

these were some of my thoughts during that time:
______________________________________________
“i keep finding myself teetering on this line where i can’t decide
whether to pursue this painful ideal of holiness or follow my heart’s desire
and seek a meaningful, romantic relationship with another man. i have been giving in more to my doubts about God and Christianity. is it worth it? we face so much pain as homosexuals in the Christian world. what’s the point? God doesn’t seem to care that much. he just leaves us in this position where we hunger after meaningful relationships, but can never go as deep as we wish. we live in a world of secrecy and shame that we can never be free of.

what freedom does Christianity offer? it only dooms us to hate ourselves and to exist as second class citizens in the church. is religion a prison – or is there some real freedom that can be found? are the men that have somehow achieved heterosexuality truly heterosexual – or are they fooling themselves and simply trying to mask and repress the desires that surge inside of them?….

i so wish i could give myself fully over to homosexuality, but i still believe in God and the Bible, and of course i don’t want to go to hell. but there comes a point where i begin to question things. i look at my life and the life of all my gay friends and wonder if God is truly loving, or if he is just a liar. perhaps the bible is fallible, and God is more inclusive than we think.

what is our ultimate goal in life? what is there for us to hope in? should we just be content with a life that is total s***? is there happiness for us? if
there is no happiness in Christianity, then what’s the point? jesus said
that he came to that we might have life, and life to the fullest. what kind
of life is this? aren’t you tired of the closet sometimes? aren’t you
tired of the hopelessness and meaninglessness of this “struggle?” why does God have to be such a f****** liar, or are there any truth in his words? i hate this life! It’s anything but life to the fullest!

what is a more fulfilling life – to be a fifty year old closeted gay christian, alone, the subject of rumors and whispers, a nothing in the church, still fighting the urges that have always been there; or being a fifty year old gay man, living with your partner of twenty or so years, comfortable with who you are, with the group of friends around you who love and accept the whole you, and comfortable with the the man you love lying next to you. nothing brings me more joy than the thought of lying next to this man every night, and being able to turn over and look at him and think, “god, i love him so much.” i’m sure the gay life is not nearly as idealized as i want to paint it, but it’s so easy to believe that it has to be better than this life.
__________________________________________________

I still don’t have the whole “gay thing” nearly figured out yet, but what I do know is that I am not a failure because I am not straight, and God does not require me to be straight in order to use me for the glory of his name.

I do believe that some people genuinely experience some sort of change to the point that they can have successful and happy marriages. I do not want to invalidate those experiences at all. But I wish they could validate my experience as someone who was deeply wounded through attempts at change. One close friend of mine even came to the point where his entire existence as a sexual being completely disgusted him, and he lost his faith and made a couple of attempts on his life. I feel that these experiences are ignored by the ex-gay movement, and we are seen as bitter people who simply did not try hard enough. But it was by far the opposite – we perhaps tried too hard.

Though I feel no hatred towards ex-gays, I do feel a certain amount of cynicism. I feel like they are not being as honest as they should, and they whitewash they greyer areas of their life. Having been in a leadership position of a group that discussed homosexuality in a conservative context, I know that there is alot of pressure to come off like you’ve got it all together, and I really think that needs to change. Leaders are human too, and we still struggle and have questions, and we are doing our communities a disservice by wearing these masks of perfection.

I do feel a tremendous amount of anger at times to the ex-gay MOVEMENT. As I said, there is this understanding that heterosexuality is God’s will for the live of every homosexual person, and one can only assume that failure to become straight is to a certain extent to be a failure as a Christian. I feel that they emphasize the law over grace.

It was the realization of the true depths of God’s love and grace that saved me during that time of being immersed in doubt and anger. I saw the wholeness of the human nature I shared with all mankind, trembled in humility, and rejoiced in God’s mercy. I saw what I deserved in full color, and saw the mercy I received in equal vividness. All the sudden these feelings for men did not seem so huge, overwhelming, and isolating when compared to the vast depths of sin we all are born into.

I was a sinful human being who was loved and forgiven by my merciful heavenly Father. That mattered more than anything.

Okay, I’ll stop my preaching and get back on target!

I think the problem is not so much labels of orientation, but the idealized lifestyle molds we are expected to fit inside, and the way one mold seeks to invalidate the experience of another. The problem is not gay, ex-gay, bi, transgendered, or queer, but all of the ways we make one experience more valid than another.

To put it simply: “I did not change, so you could not have!”

or conversely,

“I changed, so you must also!”

We need to seek to see life through the eyes of others, and not get so caught up with our own sense of ideals that we fail to validate the vast array of perspectives and experiences that exist all around us.

But I’m still cautious of orientation change, and never recommend that path to people who come to me with questions. As I said, I do not deny the experiences of others who have changed, but I do not recommend that path for the confused and struggling. I think it’s more important that they be at peace with God in the fullness of their humanity before they can even begin to think about how they should respond to their sexual orientation. And if they are going to seek heterosexual relationships, it needs to be of their own accord and not because they feel pressured into it. In addition, I think there are alot of ethical issues involved in ex-gay ministry that ex-gay leaders are ignoring, and even worse, sometimes hiding.

So, to sum everything up, there is alot of hurt among gay people that the ex-gay movement is to some level responsible for, and anger, resentment, and hatred has built up and festered within the gay community. With that anger has come a complete inability to validate experiences that have been different from theirs. To do so would be to say that their enemy is correct to a certain extent. It is easier to demonize or canonize others, living in a world of black-and-white, rather than the shades of grey that exist in reality.

Well, as always, another epically long post (is it longer than the original?)! thanks for sticking it out!

-Caleb

Frank – LOVE the quote brother! And yes, you do exist. Claim it, no matter who else from either side doesn’t want to. I’m just so tired of the huge invalidation problem that continues to grow. But honestly, most of this discussion on the post has once again given me hope for a wide array of validating where I didn’t see much before. Maybe we might be moving in the right (but very slow) direction?

Andy, I can’t tell you how many times I have been told by people that I simply do not exist. That I’m either bi and ignoring my homosexual side, that I’m still gay and closeted, that I am just straight and was confused for a while but have come back to my true nature. Most people try to just explain my existence as a former homosexual away and when I insist, they deny my existence outright.

The truth is I do exist. My story is real and there are more people like me out there. Our journey is not one of weakness but of strength. Our story is one of fighting for the life that we want and seeking not to simply be victims of fate’s roll of the dice. Choosing to leave homosexuality has been by far the hardest thing I have ever done and the most rewarding. Thank you for validating that.

While I identify as a lesbian I actually do feel that I can only say that at this point in my life. I am open to the idea of being with a man if it ever felt right but right now I

In the interest of full disclosure, my original post was also going to forewarn readers about the negative history between you and me, and more broadly between my ministry and Ex-Gay Watch. I was hoping that wouldn’t be necessary and the “baggage” woudn’t carry over here, but I think any unbiased observer can see that your personal opinion of me strongly colors your response.

For example, in one of the posts you make the statement … “where another participant is claiming orientation change based on ‘spousosexuals’ …” Following the logic of your previous posts, I assume you are referring to me.

I made no such claim, David. In fact, I haven’t made any claims at all on this thread (“fallacy” or otherwise, as you were also implying about me.) I’ve made note of anecdotal evidence that intrigues me and I’ve asked questions. And I really do appreciate your less-biased anwers.

That being said, I really don’t want to engage in personal back-and-forth with either you or Timothy (with whom I also have history.) I will try to treat both of you with respect here, and I invite other readers/posters to call me on it when I don’t. I ask you to try to treat me with the same respect.

We agree on much. I don’t even agree with my wife on everything. Complete agreement is not my goal. How boring would that be?!?!

Be greatly blessed in your journey.

Andrew, I was concerned most in your original posting about what seems to be apples-to-oranges comparisons, i.e. experiences vs. logical arguments. Later on this page we have discussed labels and “boxes,” free will and change (perhaps about being able to move from one box to another), then on to movements and organizations. Across all of these levels there seems to be a desire or drive for congruence, the ability to think, speak, and act in a consistent and authentic manner.

The backside of congruence is hypocrisy, which is where I think the hatred you mention originates. Faced with our own inability to behave as we would like, we detest people who say one thing and act otherwise. Ted Haggard comes to mind; so do Bob Moorehead and Jim Bakker. And Jesus had a particularly low tolerance for it, referring to the Pharisees as “whitewashed sepulchres.” Ouch! We typically don’t cut ourselves any slack along these lines, and we certainly don’t offer any slack to others. We just clam up and hope we don’t get exposed.

The hatred you describe reminds me of a minority relations class years ago where we had a harsh, candid discussion about “oreos,” a derogatory reference that some black people made toward others who were “black on the outside but white on the inside.” Tribune columnist Dawn Turner Trice has a blog on race relations that has mentioned this issue, as well. Back then, Heaven help you if you were perceived to have abandoned your minority culture in your pursuit of your own success within the majority’s framework. Maybe things have improved since then–I hope so!–but the rhetoric was pretty caustic. My guess is that ex-gay folk run into something like this when they’re in the GLBT community.

Much of the debate on this page has boiled down to the question, “Can I be who I really am?” Even if it doesn’t fit in the usual boxes? Even if it doesn’t comport with a traditional understanding of Scripture? Even if I wish I were otherwise? Even if *you* wish I were otherwise? Even if I have made peace with my path thus far? Even if I like who I am and can’t imagine changing? Even if I am a work in progress? Even if don’t fully know who I am yet? I think God wants us to be ourselves. I would go as far as to say we have to know ourselves very well in order to offer ourselves to God. We have to have the same understanding of ourselves that Jesus had before he washed the disciples’ feet in John 19.

We know from the Sermon on the Mount that we really can’t parse our thoughts from our deeds, and let ourselves off the hook if we only behave properly. Yet we go to great lengths to segregate what we are (e.g., orientation) from what we do (make love or practice celibacy), and open ourselves to all kinds of trouble whenever there’s a discrepancy between them. It’s insane!

I think grace is the only effective antidote. My definition of everyday grace is the ability to deal with the difference between the way things are and the way I would like them to be, without giving up the effort to close that gap. We have the promise that God’s grace is sufficient for this purpose (among others), are we willing to offer that grace to one another as we appropriate it for ourselves? To me, that’s where bridge-building begins. ‘Nuf said.

I said that in response to Karen’s comment where she seemed to already be jumping to the idea that we had a brand new avenue of orientation change, when in reality with know next to nothing about this relatively new idea. I’ve learned to be very careful in discussions with certain people lest we introduce fallacy as fact. Those things have a habit of growing and replicating and before long we are using one spitball discussion to validate something as fact in another.

I referred to your experience as anecdotal, not in an attempt to invalidate that part of your life, but because that is what it is — anecdotal. That means something when one needs to go further than “this happened to me.” How often it happens, how durable it is, how does it happen (if that can even be ascertained), is it connected to any other issues — these are all things which can’t be determined, if they can at all, until it moves from the anecdotal to the statistical, the studied, the quantified.

So in a discussion where we are referring to one group who believes ex-gay is a separate sexual orientation, and where another participant is claiming orientation change based on “spousosexuals,” I felt it was important to emphasize where things stand on this idea, for other readers that come along if no one else,

I think you already get my other points, as you indicated you agreed, i.e. that we can’t use this as a template for others, etc. But I was in no way trying to invalidate your relationship or your feelings. On the contrary, all caveats in place, I suspect this type of relationship could explain a few people’s lives. It seems to fit Alan Chambers, for one. And at first blush, it makes much more sense than the idea of orientation change.

The truth is important and it takes us where it takes us. If you have a solid, intimate relationship with (I assume) your wife and you are happy together, I am truly happy for you as well. I hope you have a long and wonderful life together.

I’m dog tired so I hope I didn’t just make things worse